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God lied and so we are all sinners June 18, 2009

Posted by shaunphilly in religion, atheism, polyamory, culture.
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eveWhen Eve ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, she had no way of knowing that it was wrong. She could not have known that the snake–or God for that matter!–was good or evil. Therefore, she cannot be blamed and the punishment was unjust. Therefore, there is no need for salvation from God because the Fall was God’s fault, being omniscient thus aware of what would happen.

Let’s recap the story just for fun, eh?

God creates Adam…

2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

After some naming ceremonies and all that, God takes a rib from Adam and makes a woman. Then a snake comes into the picture. Here is the text from Genesis:

3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

What happens next? God comes down and throws a fit, kicks them out of the Garden, and then they go on to somehow populate the earth with only one surviving son after Cain kills Abel.

But let’s take a close look at the situation that Eve finds herself in upon talking with the serpent. Eve has no knowledge of good or evil when the serpent approaches her. She can’t because she has not eaten the fruit of the tree yet. She has heard, whether from God directly or through Adam, that if she eats of the fruit she shall die on that day. The serpent says otherwise.

Now eve, in not having any knowledge of good nor evil, can’t judge whether the serpent is good or evil. She also can’t know whether God is good or evil. She is left with competing pieces of information and little to make a good judgment with. If she has any logical skills, she will have to recognize that she is in a situation with conflicting proposals. God says one thing, but this snake, being wise itself, says something else. How is she supposed to pull the truth from this?

Experiment. That’s right folks, she has a situation where the only way to find out the truth is to eat the fruit and see what happens. She has to be the world’s first scientist, doing a primitive science-like experiment, in order to find out the truth. And what happens? Well, she doesn’t die, and neither does Adam. The serpent was the one telling the truth, not God.

And as a result we have something like science associated with the Fall of humankind. To test God is to sin. That is, if you find yourself in a situation where conflicting information about what God says, to test it in any way is akin to the Fall of humanity, to repeat the original sin for which salvation is necessary.

No wonder Biblical literalists and science are so often at odds.

I’ve heard apologetics that argue that this act was a Fall from God’s grace, but that’s not what the story says. Genesis says that “for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” This is supposed to be some kind of spiritual death, but that’s also not what God said earlier. Why would God be so vague when the future of all humanity is at stake, especially when God must know what will happen.

But there is a further point here. Isn’t god supposed to be all-knowing, all-powerful, and everywhere? Wouldn’t god know that the serpent would say what it said, Eve would eat then give the fruit to Adam, and created the universe just this way anyway?

I know, I know….God gave us free will. except if God knows literally everything about the universe, God would know every “free” choice people would make and made it that way anyway. Thus, didn’t god create the universe, including us, just the way he wanted to?

Doesn’t that put the cause of this Fall, whether spiritual or otherwise, squarely in God’s lap?

I much prefer the gnostic interpretations of this story. In one version, God is not the true god but a demiurge–a lesser god, and in many cases an evil god. The serpent is a representative of the truth, of the true god, and is the hero of the story or the savior who becomes a kind of sacrifice. In some versions of ancient Gnostic Christianity, the serpent represents Christ.

And while I find this interpretation fascinating, it does not jibe with the Christian salvation story that I hear. In fact, it nullifies the necessity of salvation. It makes the Fall nothing more than pissing off a “god” that lied from the beginning anyway. Who needs salvation from that? (when typing, I mistyped ‘salvation’ as ‘slavation,’ and made myself laugh…some out there will find that funny).

Bottom line: God lied, the serpent didn’t, Adam and Eve get punished because the serpent called God out on the lie, and as a result we are all sinners. Yeah, makes perfect sense….

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Comments»

1. Karin - September 6, 2009

The other irony of this story is no one is born with a field guild as to what is good and evil. As the bible obviously believes to be the case. Rather, one learns from the mores of society, learned behavior and ones own empathy.

In essence, it would of been better for Eve to have sex with her son prior to eating from the tree. God should of thought of that. She would of been oblivious that it was wrong to do so. God of course, as usual, can commit any act he wishes…

2. edith - November 1, 2009

first, you are writing down scripture that you cannot even fathom?? To understand such things u must have a relationship with God. The bible says we are sinners indeed we are. I am definatley not arguing with you on that. What you have not mentioned here is that the bible also says that he created us to live forever, i will let you find these verses since you “know” the bible so well. Yes we were created to live forever. We were also called to be obedient so you can see when Eve was tricked by the slithering snake, she had disobeyed God. Once the fruit was bit, we began to die, hello we die today cant you see that? The point here is that we werent made to be God’s we were created for him, there is only one way but we have become so blinded and conformed to the ways of the prince of this earth we cannot see that.

3. mkEmk - January 3, 2010

yo-yo’s = you all miss it…God lies to test our love because as old n new testament says LOV God to no end first with heart, mind n body..

lov not the things of man but lov the things from God..i will test you not you test me God says to us via book of Job when the Devil chooses to use Job to try n show we are breakable human scum, chose the wrong guy..

not many go to heaven of pure lov and everlasting new beginnings, the rest will rest on God’s heart as they suffer eternal pain in the lake of damnation n fire, i know what i will choose and if God says believe in Jesus to get to me then suckers you better change to Jesus in your hearts when judged, because God don’t judge the spirtually baptized, water is an after thought. we all hav to be accountable but believers don’t get judged…

God was the first scientist, putting on his lab coat and saying today i will experiment with flying animals of the air and created a Teradactyl, then move either to flying fish or fish first to feed da birds..God my lov to no end offers evolution the answers all the way from the first molecule that created the nucleus for the big bang universes..question you have to wait to be answered is where did God the Almighty emerge from n how was this king of kings made/formed..Edward Scissor Hands Spooky stuff because that means there is a Father n Mother of the creator..God loves children because of generations, is he/she from a lineage?

4. shaunphilly - January 4, 2010

This is drivel. I have no idea what you are saying. In order to communicate, you need to know grammar to SOME degree. Mine is not perfect either, but this comment betrays a severe inability to communicate. Perhaps you have a deep and important thought, but i cannot glean it from that mishmash of words.

God would not have to test anything if he were omniscient. God would have known everything because its God, right? And if God is not omniscient, then that explains why the world is in such terrible shape. I have no idea what the last lines mean, let alone be able to answer the question.

5. zebulonthered - March 6, 2010

And here I thought I had an original idea… 🙂

6. Betrayed by God - July 1, 2010

God lies and breaks his covenants all the time, yet he puts himself forth as the god that we should put our faith in. After twenty years of service in his Church in ministry, my wife had two miscarriages one right after another. If this is the reciprocation of his love and loyalty, he is unworthy of worship as he enjoys pushing his children to the limit if suffering with little regard for the love and loyalty that they have demonstrated. That is what we call an abusive father.

7. The enlightened one - November 3, 2010

If you have paid attention while reading Genesis, the God that created man, did so to have someone smart enough to labor for the Gods, but dumb enough to easily control. AKA slaves! Adam and Eve were given a life of paradise with everything provided for them, then placed in the garden with the “forbidden fruit” and left alone with it. The “Serpent” character was a trick used to make them “sin” in order to trick them into being slaves.

So God gives the kids a bunch of sweets, then puts this shiny red candy in front of them and says, if you eat it, it will spoil your appetite. Then he turns his back as if they are being ignored, just long enough for them to have just a small taste. Then he comes back and says where are you, did you eat the candy after I told you not to.

Childbirth would be painful and man would need to farm and hunt in order to have food to live just like the Gods did, regardless of any so called curses. These were just to make man feel like he was being punished for this “sin.”

There were also 2 trees. Again, pay attention. When they ate the “fruit” of knowledge, they were given knowledge of how life worked, all of the truths that were hidden from them. This “loss of innocence” was the same you and I experience when you learn growing up, that food is not just magically in the refrigerator, but that someone has to grow it, sell it, buy it, and prepare it.

The Gods “removed” them from the garden before they could eat of the “tree of life.” It therefore became a promise after a life of servitude (afterlife). Serve God, then you may return and eat of the tree of life and live forever in paradise where all is provided for you.

Read Genesis again. I promise it’s all there. But now your eyes are opened as were Eve and Adam’s.

1:26 “Let US make man in OUR image.” Unless God was skitzophrentic, he wasn’t talking to himself.
2:5 “and there was no one to work the ground”
2:8 “In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Serpent “tricks” Eve, then Adam also “defies” God.
3:22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like ONE OF US, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Hence they were given the boot!

Also interesting is the fact that God preferred meat over vegetables. Gen 4:2-4:5 Truly the Gods of the Bible must have been living men.

8. Is Christianity good for America? « The atheist, polyamorous, skeptic - October 13, 2011

[…] but that forgets so much more of what the scriptures tell us.  There is also a redemption for crimes we are not responsible for (the Fall), support for slavery, and multitudes of atrocities beyond anything we would consider […]

9. Alain de Botton and the costly middle-man of religion « Atheist, polyamorous, skeptics - March 12, 2012

[…] we are, from the very bottom up and due to a mistake made a long time ago by a (mythological) woman who could not have known better or done otherwise,  fundamentally broken spiritually, intellectually, and physically and thus deserving of eternal […]

10. concerned - April 8, 2012

I would like to address a few comments here.

The first one that really bothered me is when The enlightened one talks about God using plural form to describe himself.
As has been explained, God is not just one, he is three in one, a concept that is extremely hard to fathom. He is the Father, the son and the Holy Spirit, therefor when he says “We” or “One of Us” he is communicating to himself.

secondly, God’s “human form” if you want to call it that, is Jesus. Jesus is God so he has been around since the beginning of time, and so he can have a preference over fruits and vegetables if he wants. Afterall, God is God and he can do whatever he wants…so by saying he can’t have a preference, you’re putting God in a box…silly Atheists.

Thirdly, Adam and Eve had been warned that they shouldn’t eat from the tree. God wanted them to have free will so that they could choose to love him. If he didn’t put the tree there, there really wouldn’t have been a choice for them. They were not controlled by God, and although he knew they would eat from the tree and have to be punished, he wanted to give them the chance to live and prove themselves, even though he knew they wouldn’t. He didn’t make them make this decision, rather he let them make that decision.

Fourthly, it was brought up that God is not omnipotent because he lets evil things happen. This is all a result of the fall. Adam and Eve fell and spread sin throughout humanity and therefor, by nature, we are evil. If you wanted to take away all evil and all misfortune in the world, then we would be taken away. If you want to take away evil, where are you going to stop? At the murder level? the lying level? the thinking level? You can’t stop evil without taking away all evil, and to take away all evil would be to take away our right to chose God over our sinful ways.

It doesn’t answer all of the concerns, but I hope this helps you better understand the christian way of thinking. God Bless

11. Truth or Happiness? | atheist, polyamorous skeptics - July 30, 2013

[…] evolution for the sake of an ancient mythological just-so story about a man, his wife/property, and a garden they were kicked out of because the property/wife was too skeptical.  Without a reality, we cannot be angry about these things because there is no objective truth to […]

12. Family as a Ka-tet: The Dark Tower as a lesson in living well | atheist, polyamorous skeptics - August 4, 2014

[…] tasting the fruit, no matter how long you may be warned against the consequences of such an action, eventually, in all of eternities (and eternal returns; yes, even Nietzsche is relevant to The Dark Tower) you will eat the fruit, […]


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