You know you have been refreshing the page every 5 minutes until it appeared.
So, you might as well Listen to this episode.
Our burlesque show is next week, so I am not sure when we will record next, but we’ll let you know.
You know you have been refreshing the page every 5 minutes until it appeared.
So, you might as well Listen to this episode.
Our burlesque show is next week, so I am not sure when we will record next, but we’ll let you know.
So, we finally got around to sitting down to record yesterday, and now I have just finished editing.
We do more OKStupid, discuss relationship rules, and and read some mail.
Enjoy!
We are not sure when we will sit down to record again, but definitely send us some feedback, whether praise or criticism.
But of course it will be all praise, right?
A while back, I ran into this:
You knew it was coming. Scientific American — which often pushes cultural agendas as much as scientific ideas — has an article informing us that polyamorous people have so much to teach the rest of us about life. From “The New Sexual Revolution: Polyamory May Be Good For You“
….
Follow the link for the rest (it’s short).
Then today, some follow up, which links to this article by the BBC about how a polyamorous relationship between four people works. From that BBC article:
“We have a generation of people coming up who are saying, we also want stability and committed relationships and safety and security, but we also want individual fulfilment. Let us see if we can negotiate monogamy or non-monogamy in a consensual way that prevents a lot of the destructions and pains of infidelity.”
At first glance, the writer could seem (if you are unfamiliar with who he is) to be supporting or criticizing this process of normalization, but then we see that he writes very similar articles about pedophilia:
Decadence is on the march! And now, a defense of pedophilia as just another “sexual orientation” has been published in the mainstream left wing UK newspaperThe Guardian. From, “Paedophilia: Bringing Dark Desires Into the Light:”
and
I have written about this before. In our growing hedonistic culture, pedophilia is in the process of being normalized, downgraded by some from a severe sexual perversion into a mere ”orientation.”
Follow the links if you want to see more, but the bottom line is that Wesley J. Smith doesn’t like any kind of pervert, polyamorous nor pedophile. I am not very familiar with his writing, aside from what I just linked to above, but I would not call him an ally. I would say that in terms of the goals and values that Mr. Smith seems to endorse and the goals and values that I endorse, we are opponents. I’m sure I have more than one opponent in that sense.
The interesting thing is that reading the articles about polyamory could be read as positive, at first glance, because while the conclusions (“Normalization today. Group marriage tomorrow.”) seem dire to the writer, they seem right to many of us. I guess we’re just perverts. No difference between consenting adults who decide to not be exclusive and having sex with children (sorry about your sarcasm meter…).
I’ve thought a lot about, and even written about, how the same information, with the same tone, can look very different to people with different worldviews. Our worldviews are not primarily about having different data, they are about having different values and thus different lenses or filters in the way we interpret and judge the world. The differences between liberals and conservatives, for example, have more to do with morality than information. The differnece between Mr. Smith and myself are more about values, and so when he writes “”Normalization today. Group marriage tomorrow,” he means something different that I would, using the same words.
As I have written before, I look forward to a new kind of polynormativity. But this is not just about making the polyamorous world better, but it is also about being a model for relationships for the world. Wesley J. Smith’s reaction to a basic response to jealousy, and talking about compersion, is to say “Oh, if we could only all be so enlightened.” This could be read as being in agreement, as if to say that the author does wish that everyone could be so enlightened, but by now we know better. This alternative interpretation, of actually wishing for universal enlightenment of this type, would have been in a tone many people,are not comfortable with. However, it’s certainly not a tone that has not been conveyed (by myself, in some cases…wait for it….).
But yes, if only we could all be so enlightened. It’s not that all polyamorous people are wiser and better at relationships than all monogamous people. It’s not even that polyamory is always superior to monogamy. It’s that because we poly people think about relationships more, experience more of them, and because we are forced to deal with relationship skills of higher complexity and more frequency, that we tend to have insights that many non-poly people don’t have. I mean, just look at how poorly non-poly advice columnists deal with questions concerning polyamory–and that’s what they do for a living!
It’s also that we have a community of people who have these experiences who talk to each other about relationships–practically, philosophically, politically, legally, etc–such that we have created a set of resources which have a lot to teach a lot of people, whether monogamous or not, about relationship skills. Put concisely, the polyamorous community may have created the single most powerful resource for understanding sexual and romantic relationships which exists anywhere. We are the experts.
Now, if only we could make ourselves better, as individuals and as a community, we might actually be the enlightened people who could help lead the various societies and cultures all over the world into a better way of loving one another, creating healthy relationships, and having the sex we want.
No pressure though.
Thanks to Ron Barber, a graphic artist who I was introduced to through a facebook contact who has been especially awesome for us here recently and whose work you can buy in the intertoobs. She is currently working on a PolySkeptic pendant based on the original logo I created (shown below, for contrast), but perhaps inspired by this new one as well. The new pendant (and perhaps a new shirt as well, which is my next project) will hopefully be available soon for purchase.
Links will be posted when they are available.

As you can see, Ron’s skills with graphic arts software is superior to mine to a significant degree. That’s fine, because I never intended to become a graphic artist, and this way I get to make new talented friends.
I have tried to update this new image to all of the various social media I use, but if you happen to notice that some online PolySkeptic activity is still plagued with my half-assed attempts at design. let us know and we’ll fix it.
Enjoy!
Since we released our first podcast a few weeks ago, we got some good feedback. We also received a donation which will help pay for the hosting cost of the podcast. Of course, life got in the way and we never got around to recording another episode….
Until now!
And by now, I mean Thursday.
So, devoted readers, what would you like us to address? And questions for us, about polyamory, or other polyskeptic related material? Tell your friends (monogamous or not) that some awesome, brilliant, and sexy people will be talking about polyamory around a microphone and we want to hear from them. Because if doing this blog has taught me anything, it has taught me that your monogamous friends and family want to listen to a podcast about polyamory.
OK, maybe not. Perhaps you might have to play it for them the next time you have a dinner party. A PolyskeptiCast dinner party!* Now that’s certainly an idea.
Either way, when we are famous and our podcast shows up on iTunes’ front page (for now, you can find it there if you know where to look), everyone and their grandma will be listening to us be awesome and hilarious. But for now, you can get in early and be one of those people that eventually says “I was listening to PolyskeptiCast before it was cool.”
Or something.
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PolSkeptic.com does not promise to show up to your dinner party. If there is good beer, cheap red wine, and it is within an hour drive of the Philadelphia area, then we will only promise to try to make it to your dinner party.
You know how people, after reaching a rock bottom point in their lives, often find religion? You know, the old redemption and salvation story. They have had evil done to them, did evil themselves, but now they walk the righteous path! It’s a powerful narrative, and the times it has been utilized in story-telling (both in text and in personal behavior) are countless. It’s a ubiquitous narrative structure of religion, literature, and personal psychology.
In sort, it’s one of the most fundamental aspects of being human.
Now, I could go on about how this narrative is flawed, especially in how it is utilized by religion as a vehicle for more than mere narrative, but of actual truth, but that’s obvious and banal. Besides, many atheist commentators have made that point numerous times, and blogs which keep pestering the same points get stale after a while.
So, how about this; Let’s try and take that narrative and fit it onto a different vehicle. Let’s see how, perhaps, this narrative relates to how we create a false dichotomy in terms of relationships, specifically when it comes to cheating and exclusive commitments.
Similar to the penitent sinner, there is the repentant adulterer. Yes, there are the people who have cheated and who try and commit themselves to being successfully monogamous, but I’m interested in the less obvious versions of this story. I’m interested in a story of the person who struggles with the desire to cheat, and who fights of this desire with an ideal of monogamy and exclusivity. I imagine that this struggle has many facets that we would recognize in man other tropes, including many “romantic” ideals which include concepts such as “one true love,” “soul mate,” and “belonging” to someone.
Somehow, the natural, and undoubtedly widespread, inclination to be attracted to many types of people is shrugged off by rationalizing some special exceptionalism or superficial romantic notion of exclusivity by people who are struggling to fit into respectable expectations. To fit in. They see their desire as a roadblock, rather than as an alternate route. They probably don’t even see the path less traveled. They see the road, the obstacle, but not the other lanes of traffic.
Why is this narrative so clean and obvious in our culture? Is it as simple as the fact that many cultural forces, including the conservative influence of religion, have tried to battle our animal nature, trying to beat the swords of our lust into ploughshares of civil monogamy? Is it as simple as groupthink and herd behavior?
In today’s cultural and political climate, “family” (usually meaning a man and a woman who have children) is often held up to be the foundation of our society and culture. This structure, solidified in monogamy, sexual exclusivity and (ultimately) ownership, is thought to be what holds all of this together. If it disappeared, it would lead to anarchy (“yay” the anarchists may say).
So to not struggle against our instincts is to invite destruction. Not merely of our relationships and our personal salvation and redemption story, but to that of our entire society. This is why I think that the insights of both atheism and polyamory, founded by skepticism (the method, not the community), are so radical. They question the very dichotomy of not only our instincts with many assumed ideals, but they present an alternative perspective through which to view these instincts. They seek to deconstruct the problem, very much in the tradition of the best of postmodern criticism (yes, there are good aspects to postmodernism, believe it or not!) so that we can see the problem from a different perspective.
At bottom, the answer is not to repress, struggle against, or transcend our instincts, but rather to find a way to make our instincts the fuel for creating a responsible, mature, and enjoyable life. The answer to desire is not always denial; sometimes it’s merely to re-think the nature of that desire in terms of what is possible, even if not popular or easy. Our instincts are not good nor are they bad, but they are real and they will continue to pester us, so we might as well get comfortable with that. And since we are getting comfortable with them, we will have to live with giving them some limitations, boundaries, and maybe even rules.
Monogamy is not the answer to variety of sexual and romantic desire. Monogamy is the answer to a genuinely limited set of such desires. Monogamy is what happens when happiness involves one person. Religion is not the answer to our metaphysical needs (cf Nietzsche). Religion is only such an answer when it happens to be true (and unlike monogamy, religion may never fit this bill. That is, monogamy may be rational, but religion may never be so).
We have the capability to re-define things such as “family,” “commitment,” and “love” to be broader than the exclusive and restrictive definitions which are common today. We, if we are to care about progress over the conservative impulses of some of our culture (conserving a system that simply does not work), must continue to demonstrate that progress is not only inevitable, but that it is morally superior.
We should be struggling along with our instincts and desires, rather than against them. It’s not only a pragmatic strategy, but an authentic (and thus moral) one.
In short, keep sinning because it’s not actually a sin. But do it responsibly.
We will have more content coming, but in the mean time here’s another way to listen.
[edit: If you tried to listen and it didn’t load, it may have been because I had to re-upload the file to podbean. It should be fine now]
So, we here at the PolySkeptic compound (or “playhouse” as Jessie calls it) have been talking about getting our sexy voices out there for people to enjoy. And what do you know, we have a microphone and some spare time, and I was willing to spend a couple of hours editing it, and here’s the first episode!
We would love to get some feedback, especially letters and comments that we could read for episode #2 (we will see how often we will do this).
In the mean time, enjoy!
OR
Editorial Note: This post was written by Wes Fenza, long before the falling out of our previous quint household and the subsequent illumination of his abusive behavior, sexual assault of several women, and removal from the Polyamory Leadership Network and banning from at least one conference. I have left Wes’ posts here because I don’t believe it’s meaningful to simply remove them. You cannot remove the truth by hiding it; Wes and I used to collaborate, and his thoughts will remain here, with this notice attached.
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Ace, at The Thinking Asexual has a great post up discussing a concept which Ace calls “the physical touch escalator”
The physical touch escalator is based on the premise that each form or level of touch on the spectrum automatically and undoubtedly implies a progression to the next form or level, usually beginning somewhere after “nonromantic/casual hugs.” Therefore, if you enthusiastically engage in one type of nonsexual, affectionate touch with someone, you are expected to eventually engage in whatever physical act comes after it on the spectrum—and keep going until you eventually reach penetrative sex.
If you don’t want to share Touch C with a person, then you better not agree to share Touch B, and if you go through with Touch C, you’re implying that you’re interested in Touch D, etc. The nonsexual forms of physical affection are only means to a sexual end, their main value the potential for sex that they carry by default.
It’s a fantastic post, and an important idea. I don’t really have anything to add to it. It reminded me, however, of a different concept. Ace began the post by saying:
I look at physical touch between two people via a spectrum model: on one end of the spectrum (of positive touch only) is the handshake and on the other end is full-blown penetrative sex. What falls in between progresses from that most casual and non-intimate/nonsensual type of touch to more intimate, more sensual, and ultimately sexual.
The nonsexual/nongenital forms of touch include: unemotional hugs, emotional hugs, holding hands, nonromantic kissing, romantic/erotic kissing (that breaks down further into “on the mouth, close-lipped,” “on the mouth, with tongue,” “on the body, close mouthed”, “on the body, open-mouthed”), cuddling (clothed or partially unclothed), caressing or petting the body affectionately, intimate paired dancing.
The erotic and/or sexual forms of touch include: mutual masturbation, sexual groping of the body with particular attention to the breasts or buttocks, dry humping, oral sex, anal sex, sex with toys, and penile-vaginal sex.
The “sexuality as a spectrum” model is very ingrained in our culture. The “correct” progression of a sexual relationships starts at one end of the spectrum, goes through each intermediate step, and ends at penetrative sex. This is why baseball is such a common metaphor to describe sex acts. You can’t go straight to second base without tagging first! It’s against the rules! Even if you hit a home run, you have to take a ceremonial lap around the bases or it doesn’t count.
I do not look at physical touch as a spectrum in that way, where there are “levels,” and each “step” progresses to a more intimate/sensual/sexual (hereafter abbreviated as “intimate”) level. In fact, I actively resist this model.
I resist it because I do not believe that any physical act is inherently more intimate or “more sexual” than any other. Certainly, there are acts which will mean more to us as individuals (for instance, cuddling tends to be more intimate to me than groping), more stimulating (genital touching is more stimulating to me than touching elsewhere), or more dangerous – and thus, requiring a higher level of trust (intercourse vs. outercourse), but these things are not universal. Some people consider kissing more intimate than sex, and some don’t. Some people consider anal sex to be more intimate than vaginal sex, and some don’t. Some people think oral sex “doesn’t count” as sex, and some emphatically argue that it does. This is, of course, not even getting into the endless variety and ranking of activities within the BDSM community. There is a world of variety is what is considered intimate to someone and meaningless to someone else. The dominant narrative encourages people to feel shameful or broken if certain steps don’t fit in to their proper place on the escalator. It’s uncool, and we should encourage people to experiment and make their own choices about what is intimate and what is not.
The other reason why I resist the spectrum model is that I don’t see anything wrong with consensually skipping steps if you don’t like them. Each physical touch is a completely different thing to me. Some people are very compatible kissers with me, but not compatible in terms of sexual groping. Sometimes, it’s the exact opposite. What if I’d like to engage in sexual groping (or something “higher” in the spectrum) with someone, but not kiss? I feel as though our society doesn’t have a narrative for that, and I wouldn’t know how to bring it up in a way that doesn’t result in offense and hurt feelings.
Another side effect of this view is that it encourages people to judge their compatibility on “higher level” activities by their compatibility on “lower level” activities. A few weeks ago, I had a conversation with a few friends whereby they all agreed that an incompatible kisser would almost certainly be incompatible sexually. I reject this view, mostly from experience than anything else. While I think that the emotional component of physical intimacy tends to remain largely unchanged from activity to activity, a person’s physical compatibility can be much different. Even changes as small as what part of my body a person is touching can result in vastly different amounts of pleasure.
The physical touch spectrum, though widely accepted, seems to be yet another socially-created norm that shortchanges everyone who doesn’t conform. Your thoughts?
I’m short on time, so I will link to this article about non-monogamy in the gay community, which I found because of this podcast episode at double x about monogamish (I hate that term) gay couple and how it relates to changing how we (they mean straight people) see marriage.
While listening to this podcast, I wanted to throw things. They asked questions like can we (straight married people) learn something from these monogamish gay couples? And made the point that gay people do non-monogamy but straight couples just cheat.
I don’t have time to dissecct the discussion, because I have work soon, but I urge you to listen to this for yourself if you are interested. There is so much wrong with this conversation.
How the hell do these people have this conversation with no awareness of the existence of polyamory? I looked in the comments, and no mention of it there either. I mean, I do go on about how the mainstream is very unaware of polyamory (they should at least know it exists), but to see it so blatantly and ignorantly gabbed about (they call the podcast a “gabfest,” so I am not being flippant) in this way is really frustrating.
I will try later tonight or tomorrow, probably, to contact the people who run this podcast to see if maybe some dialog and perhaps some education could be in order. For now, I will leave this as is.